I'm not sure what you're trying to convey with the seatbelt/speed limit example. Seatbelts don't help in a high speed head on collision, an easily foreseeable outcome of no speed limits. Seat belts only help in certain types of collisions and primarily lessen the effects of said collision, not stop you from getting injured at all or avoiding the collision. The speed limit and seatbelts are only related in so far as they both apply to cars. We would still have speed limits even if we had that foam from Demolition Man because your car still hits something else, that is likely demolished, and that something could be a person.

I have not questioned why people should get the vaccine. I have in fact said that they should. What I have asked is why people who have had the vaccine feel like everyone around them absolutely must also have it for the sake of this convention? I'm trying to understand their mindset, not engage in a pro or anti vax debate. I'll make my position on that clear, again. People should get the vaccine if they can safely do so. 

So, if I understand your response correctly and please let me know if I don't, you believe that even with the vaccine you can still get the virus? So I assume your reasoning is that if everyone else is vaccinated then that chance is greatly reduced because they too are now at a reduced risk of getting the virus? Would that be an accurate take on your position?  

Hey hey, I can try to explain.  I'll steer us back into the gentle conversational lane.

This is just ME talking :)

This is why I personally (no judgement zone here) would feel more comfortable with a vax only rule.

My perception of a person who's had a vaccine already (by sept 15th):

(1) believes in science
(2) believes in vaccines, and while not always perfect (in some cases less than 50% effective) is 'doing the best we can'
(3) believes the vaccine is protecting them, but maybe even protecting others as well.  
(4) probably wears a mask in public becuase they feel like it's the right thing to do
(5) general mindset of 'ok this is serious, this is a problem, this is a pandemic, let's mask up, vaccine up, get this thing under control.

It's that TYPE of person that I personally perceive to be SAFE right now to hang out with.  That type of person probably doesn't take chances, probably doesn't go to parties and get wasted with no mask, probably doesn't go to street protests, I'd imagine they're pretty safe and paranoid and embracing science to save themselves and others.

(again, no judgement here, every person has a complete right to whatever they want to do.  SOMETIMES those people don't realize that it actually affects others too, that's not really the topic here so we'll leave alone for now).

Conversely, I live in Missouri.  In the city (as a huge generalzation) I find that most people mask up and are getting vaxxed.  If you drive out to the super rural areas, no one wears a mask, no one gets a vaccine.  Those people (who are fantastic human beings im sure, no judgement here) are more apt to walk into a walmart with no mask (in fact, I had to drive 2 hours to get my vaccine to rural missuori so I witnessed no mask wearing except wal mart employees, point of reference)

Outside of a pandemic, I'd love to hang out with you.  In a pandemic, I'd like to be a little more selective with my and my family's health.  

To answer your specific question though superskull (which is fair and good and fine, great conversation at least):

I perceive that if I have fully vaccinnated, I perceive I have about a 5% of catching the virus (probably way more than that of CATCHING it, but agin my mental perception). and if I'm vaccinnated, a 5% chance again of any serious reprecutions.  I would feel personalyl comfortable hanging out shoulder to shoulder on red carpet with Those People.  

I would personally just NOT feel comfortable hanging out shoulder to shoulder on red carpet with the folks that don't believe in masks and aren't vaxxing up.  *shrug* to me, it's not a difficult choice or preference.  I perceive that if I hang out shoulder to shoulder with them ONE of them PROBABLY has or had covid, and if I get it, I'M probably fine, I may get a cough, but hopefully my vaccine lasts.  Honestly not as worried about myself, as I'm shielded and fine.  I just think it's irresonsible holding an event like that with all of those people.  SURE they have a choice to come or not come.  Do all people traditionally make great choices or do we need some guardrails once in a while.  To me, it's like inviting everyone hold a candle at a fireworks convention.  SURE its your choice, sure it's probably fine.  People are generally smart.  But I mean you're just CREATING an environment for explosion.  

If we do our best to to control the controllable now, then we mitigate the risk and still have fun.  

Someone commented way above about (sorry at work, not time to get to everything.  Great discussion so far) future dates and do we always have to have these requirements.  Nah, we're just talking about 2021.  Flu has always been here and will always be here, we all get the efficacy and strains and all that.  We're just talking about 2021 in a vaccum.  we HAVE vaccines now.  YAY.  let's require them THIS year, let's all be safe and masked and vaxxed and have fun together this year.  We'll worry about next year next year :)

This the first pandemic that we have all faced in our lifetime as we were not old enough to have lived through the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918.

Whenever there is a virus that has made the impact that COVID has it is going to have an affect on everything as we know it until we have the means to overcome it.  We have overcome the flu to a certain extent.  Yes the flu is still around and always will be, but it is not a major issue as it once was.  COVID will eventually become a non factor, but it will just take time.

COVID-19 is a new virus that had to be researched to come up with a means to combat it.  We can all agree that there were decision that were made worldwide that didn't make much sense, but given the situation people were doing the best they could for the most part.

I expect that each year people who decide to will get a COVID and flu vaccine as there will be a season for both of these viruses.

And, that's not my opinion, that's what the scientific and medical community says about it.

Most vaccines for various things range in effectiveness from 50-100%, yes.  Flu, for example, can even be as low as 40% sometimes (one year recently, it was 20%) - as the strains migrate by the time we deliver the vaccine.  That is a risk here, too.  In the case of the 3 vaccines approved in the U.S.  efficacy seems to be very high, in the range of 90-100%.  There is a 4th vaccine (AstraZeneca) that is likely to be approved soon for United States.  It's efficacy is in the 80% range.  This vaccine is already in use elsewhere in the world.  And variant strains have the potential to reduce that efficacy.  I believe all 3 vaccines were 100% effective in preventing *death* in the studied groups, though not 100% against getting sick.

So, you're at Gen Con with COVID and you're standing next to someone from India (or any number of other places) with an 80% effective vaccine.  I think that person deserves to know that you aren't needlessly gambling with their health.

Therefore, yes, getting vaccinated blocks transmission to people -- providing additional protection even to those already vaccinated.  Not to mention protecting people who can't get vaccinated due to underlying medical conditions (usually due to disorders in their immune systems, but also due age).  If you get vaccinated for whooping cough, for example, you can save the life of a small child before they are even old enough to get the whooping cough vaccine themself.  So, yes, it goes way beyond just benefit to you personally.

Also, the more the disease is floating out there replicating, the more chances it has to evolve a solution to 'beat' our vaccine.  Anyone willingly letting that happen is increasing the chances that a strain develops around our vaccines.

Strange that you are quick to assume that I am anti-vax.  Actually I am not, I just can rationalize the numerous concerns many have with this so young of a vaccine and respect their opinions.  

I brought up the point that the vaccine is still in its early stages and on an emergency license because I believe it is hard for anyone to mandate something that is not fully approved.  I feel it is a bad road to go down.

The other point I was trying to make is it is still unknown the longevity of the vaccine which in essence makes it a logistical nightmare to try and track and/or screen people coming in the door.  I normally meet 2 other people each year at gencon. They both are in healthcare and received their vaccines in the first wave.  I am curious if their vaccine will still be helpful come September (considering yet again that the CDC is only claiming 3 months atm).  

The children under 16 issue I feel most people understand is a concern, but not much can be done.

This lack of information in my opinion makes it tough for any venue to mandate vax reqs.  

I strongly encourage people to get the vaccine, but so much is unknown I feel I have to respect people’s opinions and concerns.  At the end of the day people have to make their own decisions on what they feel is best for themself in any situation.

The vaccine is 90% effective. But not 100%. And it is not proven to stop you from getting the virus or spreading it. Just reduces the chances of doing so and likely, but not 100%, reduces the severity. 

But no one knows how long you are protected or whether it is effective against variants. The Pfizer one was stated to be effective, but less effective, against the already known variants.

Im not making a moral judgment. People can choose to get the vaccine or not. But your choice not to get it potentially affects my health and safety. The more it spreads the more chance of further mutations. This is already proven by the multiple variants we have now.

I also think for financial and logistical sake the way to have the convention with the most # of attendees and the least possible restrictions is to require proof of vaccination. 

Without proof, Gencon must assume that a substantial # of attendees are potential carriers. Which means social distancing and attendance limits. 

The CDC has guidance which says vaccinated people can visit other vaccinated people without masks or social distancing. 

The CDC has also said that those who are not vaccinated should not visit other unvaccinated people unless there are masks and social distancing.

So there is a clear choice in my mind as to what is safe and what is not.

My predictions:

- Vaccines not required (hope I'm wrong)
- 50% capacity
- Masks in common areas (I could actually see this going away by September, though)
- Doorknob licking will be optional

To your answer, it seems rational to me. Personally, if I don't have the vaccine the odds of me going will seriously drop (assuming it's not mandatory at which point the odds would obviously be 0). But my concern is me. I accept that I can't control literally anyone else so I accept that going out the door to any place else is me taking a risk. So, to me, there's a limit on how far you can take things for the sake of safety*. That's not a judgement on your answer by the way, I can understand where you are coming from and it makes sense. 

*Since I know I need to keep saying this, that isn't code for don't get the vaccine. 

So it's either vaccinations required and increased attendance or no vaccinations required with masks and distance.

I dont see the CDC recommending by September that unvaccinated people can gather at a convention without masks and distance. 

To your other post (I appreciate you being civil), I agree that from a logistic standpoint GenCon would have to confirm vaccination beforehand. Doesn't that potentially rope them into HIPPA regulations though, since they are now handling your medical information? I'm not a lawyer and I only have limited knowledge of HIPPA regulations, but it's my impression that you don't want to get entangled with them unless you absolutely have to. 

I think the restrictions are not going to be as stringent as some are thinking.  Indiana's governor just announced the mask mandate would be lifted in 2 weeks.  Indiana to lift mask mandate amid concern: 'We're not ready'  (I hope I did the link thing right...)

On another note, the whole "vaccination passport" idea will be problematic.  There are people besides anti-vax'ers who don't/can't get shots.  Medical reasons and religious beliefs.  I am a little bothered by a business wanting to see my medical records to enter.  None of their business really.  Employers can't ask questions regarding your medical history, doctors/medical professionals can't divulge your information outside of certain parameters (HIPAA).  Right or wrong, a business getting into their customers medical information is a bit invasive.

Don't get me wrong.  If I have to show proof of vaccination to attend, I will.  However, I WILL be a bit of smart-alecky about it.  Or perhaps I will just be a grumbling old man as I comply.   

That said - they are well within their rights to set a mask policy and social distancing.  Probably a good idea - best case is helps, worst case it gives people some feeling of control and security. 

For the second paragraph, I disagree.  Employer rules do not apply here, for one thing.  Also, there is really nothing new here.  When I went to a (private) college (well before this pandemic), I had to show proof of vaccinations before they'd release my grades.  A lot of the concerns expressed about this topic (is it their business, HIPAA, medical exemptions, etc) have already been addressed as part of these other processes.  To the extent that a 'vaccine passport' might exist, even better -- but these things were already part of the world before last year.

I also posted the link earlier to the Wa Po story. Employers can ask for proof of vaccination and it's not a violation. 

https://www-natlawreview-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.natlawreview.com/article/employers-take-shot-managing-covid-19-vaccine?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&amp&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#aoh=16165585663534&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.natlawreview.com%2Farticle%2Femployers-take-shot-managing-covid-19-vaccine

The whole "if other people have the vaccine, why does it matter if I don't" question is, intended or not, a variation of a popular talking point of the anti-vax crowd, who rely on herd immunity, rather than take active measures themselves.  Attitudes like this are why we still get occasional flareups of diseases everyone thought were taken care of now and then.  It also exposes people who might have medical reasons for not getting a vaccine to increased risk if they're around people who refuse to get one.  In short, the more unvaccinated people gather, the greater chance of transmission and/or mutation, no matter how many other people are vaccinated--and remember, the vaccines don't protect people 100%, they just make it far less likely you'll wind up in the hospital if you do catch it, which is another reason to not want to hang out with those who refuse the vaccine if you can avoid it!

As for the "Why can I go to the store without a vaccine, but need one for the con" question, this is also a variation of a talking point a lot of COVID deniers have used, and doesn't hold up to scrutiny.  In a grocery store, you're in and out in under an hour which, combined with masks and social distancing, helps minimize the risk of infection.  At a convention, you're there for days breathing the same air as everyone else--as has been stated by the CDC and elsewhere, spending time with a crowd indoors is one of the most high-risk behaviors you can undertake. 

In short, I think GC should require vaccinations and I think those who refuse to vaccinate shouldn't go, because the medical professionals--including the frontline workers who have been overwhelmed for months at a time--are begging us to get the shot. 

Some states will lift all restrictions in favor of economic, social or political considerations.

The CDC will keep restrictions based upon health and safety considerations. They still maintain that unvaccinated people requires masks and social distancing.

Businesses will have to choose between these concerns.